Reaction to Response

We don't have a leadership crisis. We have a nervous system crisis. Executive coach, organizational psychologist and Founder and Managing Partner of Aergon, Dr. Thomas Gartenmann joins Mary Schaub to explore what happens when human biology — designed for a slower, smaller world — collides with the accelerating complexity of the polycrisis, the 24-hour news cycle, and the relentless pressure of modern organizational life. The result, Thomas argues, isn't bad behavior. It's biology operating without awareness.

Drawing on decades of work with leaders across cultures — from Swiss boardrooms to Asian multinationals to US consulting firms — Thomas traces a path from the body's automatic survival responses to the kind of conscious, relational presence that transforms not just individuals, but the systems they lead. Along the way, the conversation moves through road rage and Swiss train precision, childhood scripting and shadow selves, singing in a choir and what it taught him about listening, and the Egyptian philosopher whose answer to "who is the most important person?" stopped both host and guest in their tracks.

Key Topics

✅Fight / flight / freeze / fawn responses in homes, teams, and organizations

✅Leadership as modeling: culture change starts with the leader’s regulation

✅Responding vs reacting (Viktor Frankl’s “space”)

✅Playfulness and the “jester” archetype as a tension-release mechanism

✅Identity, self-states, and context (“Who are you, and how many?”)

✅Shadow in individuals and organizations; the risk of rigid labels (“toxic culture”)

✅Relational ethics: presence with “the person in front of me”

Takeaways

💡Threat compresses time. When activated, we’re not in the moment—we’re in the past, running a familiar script.

💡Awareness creates options. Naming internal activation (“I’m feeling angry” vs “I am angry”) opens a wedge of choice.

💡Regulation is contagious. A leader’s dysregulation spreads; a leader’s steadiness can also stabilize a room.

💡Language matters, but the body leads. Insight helps, yet real change comes from practicing state-shifts under pressure.

💡Joy can’t be forced. Chasing it directly often backfires; it tends to arise as a byproduct of safety, attunement, and flow.

💡Culture is patterned imitation. What becomes “normal” spreads—especially under stress—unless interrupted by conscious modeling.

Memorable Quotes

🎤 “The harm we’re facing today isn’t caused by bad people or bad intentions. It’s caused by nervous systems operating beyond their capacity.”

🎤 “If our nervous system is in fight, flight, freeze, fawn, we’re just reacting… We can’t create the future out of the past.”

🎤 “I make a difference between reacting and responding… I choose my response.”

🎤 “Life is a below-the-neck experience. It’s not happening in our head.”

🎤 “If I realize I’m not my thought… that relaxes me.”

Resources / External Links 

🔗Thomas Gartenmann — Airgon (airgon.com) — his consultancy integrating psychology and business leadership

🔗The Emperor’s Cupboard (2022) — Western psychology + Eastern wisdom for business leaders: https://a.co/d/02LodV3e

🔗Espresso your Mind (2024) — A–Z insights into psychology: 

🔗Viktor Frankl — Man's Search for Meaning — the foundational text behind the stimulus-response gap framework referenced throughout

🔗Adam Curtis, HyperNormalisation (2016) — BBC — referenced in context of collective cultural stagnation (also cited in Episode 30 with Louis Klein — a nice thread to draw across the season)

🔗Christian Madsbjerg — Look: How to Pa

Disclaimer:

***The information, opinions, and recommendations presented in this Podcast are for general information only and any reliance on the information provided in this Podcast is done at your own risk. This Podcast should not be considered professional advice.***

Credits: Written, produced and hosted by: Mary Schaub. Theme song written by: Mary Schaub

Contact: FractalsofChange@outlook.com  

Website: M. Schaub Advisory (MSA)

Transcript

Mary Schaub (00:00)

The harm we're facing today isn't caused by bad people or bad intentions. It's caused by nervous systems operating beyond their capacity.

Thomas (00:13)

I agree to that. If our nervous system is in fight, flight, freeze, fall, we're just reacting to the situation based on a very old script. We're not in the moment, we're in the past. And we can't create the future out of the past. there is an argument.

can be made to be present and having choice.

Mary Schaub (00:48)

You've written about our current polycrisis, geopolitical conflict, economic uncertainty, rapid technological acceleration, climate anxiety. When human nervous systems are exposed to sustained layered threat like this, what tends to happen inside of us?

Thomas (01:08)

Well, my sense is it's an acceleration. mean, all those triggers are in us anyway. But if I compare my upbringing, where there were no cell phones, everything was condensed. If I read the newspaper at all, in an article, was news where at seven o'clock and we kind of sat in front of the news.

there were less trigger, was less connection to the world. We were in our bubble and we heard about things from a perspective of the past. Now we are almost live in the situation. We have the visual impact of this. We see all that.

Maybe in the 70s you had pictures of Vietnam and these places, those were pictures. Now you have films from Gaza, from the Ukraine. So I think our nervous systems are really stressed out to deal with all of that.

Mary Schaub (02:06)

It feels almost like the technology has far accelerated beyond our capacity to keep up, that we were never really, we're not designed to take in the really disturbing and triggering nature of it all.

Thomas (02:19)

Yeah,

absolutely. mean, this design is 150,000 years old. It was a good design. And it was designed for a world where there were many threats. And the reason we're here is because the design was so good. Unfortunately, our system is very sensitive. ⁓

you know, somebody overtakes you with his car or her car, you're reading something and suddenly the whole thing kicks in and we're in a state of survival compared to looking at it and deciding whether it's a threat or not.

Mary Schaub (02:52)

We know from movies what violent conflict looks like, but when someone is feeling threatened, often without realizing it, in less dramatic environments like home or work, what do we tend to see behaviorally?

Thomas (03:09)

On a smaller scale, see all of the potential behaviors. So we are either fighting it, we're fleeing it, we're overwhelmed with the information and the emotions our body produces, or we're trying to fawning our way into being kind that nobody will attack us because we're smiling and helpful. I think really basic strategies.

most of us use. And the invitation is to really assess the situation and maybe stay curious and connected and wonder what's going on with the other person. Which brings us to leadership because the leader that is triggered will trigger other people and we are in a less productive state, in a less helpful connection, if we are in a connection.

Mary Schaub (03:59)

I've seen, you might've seen as well, leadership teams where you can see almost familial dynamics at play. A leader who maybe is the overbearing, controlling mother, and then you can see the dynamics within that leadership change almost become like a family acting themselves out. And I have to admit, I played sort of the fawning perfectionist pleasing.

role and to what you just said, it took me some time to recognize that that's what was happening at work. It's easy at work because that can be written off as being a high achiever, high performer, whatever, but what's really going on under the surface is something different that it's playing out in that way. And once there's that consciousness to it, the relationships really shift

Thomas (04:48)

Yeah, so, you know, I think this is really a powerful picture. So you're in a setting and it looks like family. And it's as if you have your old script and your family and you're reading it. it somehow matches the situation, but it's not helpful. It's not resolving the situation. And there's the invitation to become aware of it. And when we're aware we have choice.

and we can over time learn to deal with our nervous system in a better way, our nervous system adapts to it in a better way. And some of the strategies, what you said, are actually in the business context very helpful.

I people who will not say no and work their head off, insecure overachievers, we termed those people applying in consultancies. That is a trait a number of people find very helpful because they're very productive. But it's not a long-term strategy. It's exhausting for some.

Mary Schaub (05:52)

What you're describing, being aware of what's happening inside, it's taken me some time to recognize the difference between being panicked and recognizing that my nervous system is activated. It's not something that was modeled to me or that I was taught as a child.

Can you explain interoception and why it's so critical and foundational in navigating the world?

Thomas (06:17)

I think I had an environment where, of course, I modeled. I had two models, my father being probably anxious and in many cases choleric, which is not a situation where I felt safe. And so I modeled that plus my mother who was more on the...

absolutely friendly, supportive, everything goes. So I had two models to choose from. then specific situations like driving in a car. My father was screaming and was very loud and getting easily upset. The funny thing happened when I met my wife and after some time...

She said, Thomas, you're such a balanced person. You're very friendly. But what happens to you when you drive your car? And I said...

what? That's how one drives a car. You you're shouting, you're aggressive, And it took me some time to understand the difference, to look at myself in that situation and kind of reflect on it. And of course, was a very, occasionally I'm still an aggressive driver. And then just realizing that I was sitting for 18 years in that car.

and in Europe you start with 18 driving a car and I just copied whatever I saw. And I guess that is relevant for leadership because we very often just copy. We see what others do and we think okay that's a standard.

Which also makes a point that leadership always starts with the leader. And if you want to change the culture, the leader goes first. He has to model the new behavior. He or she has to demonstrate that in And so, just to your question, so I realized it, but that didn't change it yet. It was still, when I was triggered, it was like in my face and over time,

I got more distance. realized, it was upsetting me, but I didn't have to just react immediately. could kind of breathe or do other things. Initially in my training, was much more come up with a better question or a better frame. So one of my frames was, ⁓ my Zen master is driving in front of me and teaching me a lesson. And so, you know, I framed it in a helpful way.

the more I got into the different approaches, I realized the emotions play a very important role and having the space for those emotions that they wouldn't overwhelm me was part of the practice. We talked about meditation, we talked about ways to just feel it internally. So instead of having my emotions here and being my emotions,

I got more space and I said, I'm not angry, I'm feeling angry. And making that distinction helped me to kind of have the space to choose.

Mary Schaub (09:17)

That is fantastic. The way you're describing it was as though your wife was seeing you as two different people, like you were a totally different person when you were driving.

Thomas (09:27)

But we are, we

are. There is a German book which is really, really has a funny title. It's, if I translate that, it's Who Are You and How Many?

Mary Schaub (09:38)

that's fantastic. look at that.

Thomas (09:40)

Yeah, but the idea is ⁓ context and expectation and training, of course, will activate certain parts in us, in the family, we behave different. And this is really funny when you go back to the old family or with your siblings, suddenly behavior comes up where I go, OK, I haven't seen that one in a long time.

And friends, context plays an important role. We're biological, we're psychological, but we're also sociological kind of beings and that plays a role.

Mary Schaub (10:19)

I love that you've brought up the different parts of us because I think people are talking about this more generally. I think it was Dr. Philip Bromberg who wrote quite a bit about everyone has different self-states as you were describing how you are at work or how you are with your family. I have a friend of mine that when he goes back to England, his accent changes just very naturally, something as obvious as that. But we all have that.

inside of us. this is, I am not making this up, but my next question was literally an example of me having road rage. So it's so synchronicitous that we both have this experience because I was talking about when I drive on the highway here in New York, there's one in particular that's very, very, people drive very, very aggressively. And if someone cuts me off instinctually, of course, my adrenaline is going to go up and I'm going to hit the brakes.

But then after that, there's this space and this moment of choice in how I react. And I very much want to be seen and intellectually I know that I want to be the very righteous person who just goes, they're having a bad day. They didn't see me. It's fine. But me personally, I have always struggled with that and have responded poorly in these types of situations, honking or perhaps a gesture or something like that.

I'm so pleased that you had a very similar experience in your life.

Thomas (11:42)

And here, just in terms of the context, I drove a car many times in the US because I was working in Boston and New York. I find the American traffic very calm and very smooth. I studied a year in France and I found, or if you drive in Italy, that's a different way of So it's also culture.

And what we perceive as being already threatened might be a very normal kind of, hey, when I park, I need to bump into the car in order to get my space. That was a saying when we parked in Paris, because everything is so tight. So there is also a cultural context, what is normal and what is considered to be rude or aggressive.

Mary Schaub (12:30)

That's so true. I've noticed that even in the UK, people will pull out just because the traffic is very congested and you have to take that moment. And cars are smaller and people, certainly in the cities are driving slower. But here, you're right. I think people tend to personalize it as the, dare you? There's sort of a, how dare you? ⁓ Maybe projection going on.

But it reminds me of that indigenous parable of the two wolves that we have inside of ourselves. anger and fear, one is anger and fear and the other one is care and wisdom. And the first step isn't choosing the quote unquote right wolf, it's recognizing that they're both there. And this, yeah, the one that you're, I'm wondering how we build, and I love your example of imagining that your Zen master is in front of you.

Thomas (12:57)

Yeah.

Which one are you feeding ⁓ over a longer time?

Mary Schaub (13:21)

⁓ We each have to find the way to build that capacity to align our intentions, because I don't think most people want to behave in some of these ways. And they're often surprised that they can align their intentions with their behaviors.

Thomas (13:37)

Well, I think if we slow down, if I describe my process, I got triggered and I was totally in that aggressive state. There was no space for me to make a choice. If we discuss the frame, I choose or I ask myself the question, I think it's my Zen master teaching me.

teaching me a lesson, then already there is a space to cognitively influence it. And then we can look at the various approaches. And now we know that breath is actually the big thing. So if I just breathe out longer, I can relax my whole system. If I activate more of my peripheral vision, can kind of...

influence my state. I do the, you know, the breast this

It just relaxes my system and knowing that and practicing that helps to get more space.

Mary Schaub (14:38)

Absolutely. I taught that to a young cousin of mine who was having some anxiety and we sat and I taught her that she could do this at school or if she was traveling and she was anxious. It's brilliant that we have these different methods that are accessible to everyone that I also think it helps to lessen the shame and the self-consciousness of having some of these feelings to start with that

You see someone like Dr. Andrew Huberman teaching the breathing on It sort of normalizes it. This is not for someone who has an emotional problem. We all have these feelings and they come up.

Thomas (15:17)

And I don't think you have to teach it. mean, I had the luxury and really the gift of growing with three kids, right, helping them. And I remember when they were upset, they did. They already it was already part of their system. And then probably some of the teaching, some of the environment got that out of them. So I think if we

let them do that more and provide the space for them to relax and it's totally okay to kind of regulate your system and you're modeling it, know, showing that.

friend of mine, she learned about that and she, her two kids, which are more in the range of six to eight, when they do a lot of stuff, then she goes and regulates herself and then the kids say, ⁓ mommy's breathing again. So they notice and you're showing how you can deal with this and then it

Mary Schaub (16:12)

It's great.

Thomas (16:21)

daddy and mommy are not perfect but they're kind of showing that they're dealing with these situations in a specific way.

Mary Schaub (16:29)

That's a wonderful example and to know that parents are modeling that. I'm wondering as a parent and also as someone who works with executives, when we are around other people, sometimes we're the ones being activated and sometimes we see other people being activated and often without their awareness, how do you counsel people to deal with that? How do we react?

skillfully to others when we come across them being dysregulated? How can we react honestly and effectively without being judgmental or controlling?

Thomas (17:05)

Well, I think it starts with your own state and being aware of your own state and connected to your own state. So if I'm calm and I notice somebody else is agitated, angry, I can say I can point out I have the feeling this was upsetting. So you support them in realizing their state while being calm.

and wording it in a way that this is my perception, I'm not sure. You are angry is less helpful. So it seems to me that was upsetting you, you feel to me as if... And then there is something I can address on just on the cognitive level I'm describing things or I can feel with the person, I can kind of tune in.

Mary Schaub (17:44)

Right? It doesn't work.

Thomas (18:01)

And that is a much stronger bond. And I can hold that and I feel that in my body that somebody is upset. I'm describing that this is still not the biggest skill set I have because my system is still very sensitive. And I also pull back and I go, wow, that's happening to me. realizing that. then I find language is also very precise and gives away pointers.

I make a difference between reacting and responding. So I react, that's more the animal trained part. I respond, I choose in the very Viktor Frankl sense, I choose my response. There is a space I can choose to assess the situation, what is needed. And first go and look at the relational level.

I mean, on the content where we can very fast and be very quick in exchanging our views. But what's the connection level? How connected do I feel? How safe do I feel? What's my sense of the room if there is a group of people? And it's amazing if you just, my senses look, the energy is really low and everybody goes like, yeah, or no, not for me. But that kind of shifts the...

attention and people then tune in into this and I think we spend too much time in our left side of the hemisphere, the logical, the language, the linear and as a facilitator or as a leader you can activate the other side in asking questions or sharing observations.

And being playful. I find playful is a really, if you look at the archetypes, the jester who kind of changes the situation. And I think we're very creative and much better connected if there is a humorous part. mean, not...

Mary Schaub (19:50)

Mm.

Thomas (20:06)

humorous in terms of ignoring what is. having a view on it, okay, we're stuck in this, it's two o'clock in the morning. Let's creatively ⁓ think about how we can solve that and structure it. if there is a bit more of lightness and playfulness, I found that in many situations when I worked as a consultant, that really helped. Or we can...

pull ourselves down, you know, no, it's really bad and why are we here and da da da. then, so that's also choice you have as a leader. it's an important distinction not to get away from what is, but naming it and framing in a way that we still have choice, we still have agency in this and how would we do it in a way that is helpful to everybody. So.

Mary Schaub (20:53)

The playfulness is such a great point and I want to speak to you a little bit later about joy, but it does feel in sort of this tangible heaviness that's sort of around us. And maybe it goes back to what you're saying. Much of the information and news that we get is intentionally skewed negative because that tends to have higher clicks.

Thomas (21:13)

gets more intense.

Mary Schaub (21:14)

Yeah,

so I feel like we really have this vacuum of joy and playfulness as you're describing. It feels like there's a real lack around us. So I really love you bringing that in, that we can control that, make that choice to bring some of that. I certainly need to be better at that myself.

Thomas (21:31)

I'm not sure you can control it. think it's... I think... I'm not sure... Is it called Frankel's paradox? The very moment you choose to chase joy or happiness, it kind of evades you. I think it's a side product of...

Mary Schaub (21:38)

Hmm.

Thomas (21:48)

sensing where your nervous system is, what you need, sensing the others, being in a state and suddenly you get these flow states and you can create that. And so there are many things you can do. One important point for me in all the courses I do or the leadership trainings,

you practice certain things. It's much more important to actually do things and see how you're acting in this. Only in theory there is no difference between theory and practice. Instead of saying, look, this is the way you have to do it, it's just...

understanding that there will be situations which are tough. Let's figure out how we deal with tough situations. Do I have to regulate myself? Do I have to go step back and see where we are? Take a break? Because the capacity is in the room. The knowledge is in the room. And it's a bit like...

Am I just sitting on my hard drive and trying to find based on my history the right solution or are we all connected with each other and even the internet? can ⁓ chat GBT our way out of this. ⁓ It's a different way of working and that's a state and a way of connecting.

Mary Schaub (23:06)

Ha ha ha!

Do you see what I did? was over intellectualizing joy. I'm trying to find the framework for joy. This is sort of the failure and that's not the way. No, it's absurd. ⁓

Thomas (23:23)

Is there a framework for joy? don't know. I will notice when

I feel joy, I know. And you will know too. It's something we just love to have. It's also one of those emotions. ⁓ One of the things I learned in the theatre work, an emotion usually takes 90 seconds. It goes, it has a peak and then it...

unless it's grief or ⁓ shame, slightly different time frame. But that was such an insight. It's not, I'm sad and I'm angry and I'm da. No, there is a peak, an onset there. And if I let it be, if I observe it, if I of cling to it, I'm now angry and I need to... Then of course I'm creating a...

consistent feeling and it gets a mood.

Mary Schaub (24:15)

I wanted to share with you, one of my guilty pleasures is medical dramas. I can't believe I'm admitting this, but we all need something light. This is my, get too heavy and philosophical and then I need something else. So this is how I try to find some artificial joy. I watch these medical dramas here in the US. And there was one aptly called ER about 30 years ago I used to watch. And there's a new version out today.

Thomas (24:27)

Okay.

Who was playing in that or is that the Sifra? ⁓

Mary Schaub (24:40)

Exactly. That's exactly it.

Clooney and Noah Wiley, and now he's back in this new show called Pitt, which takes place in Pittsburgh in a US city hospital. And so it's very easy to draw parallels. It's the same actor and a city emergency room. But what really surprised me was that apparently now it's a normal occurrence for patients and families to become aggressive, even violent with hospital staff.

so much so that there's new protocols. It happens so frequently. I can go back watching this old show and obviously you notice things like they didn't have cell phones and how the world has changed. The other thing that really surprised me was this new behavioral component about the rage that a lot of frontline hospital workers receive. They have special codes that they call and security.

I noticed here in New York City as well on the buses and trains, they have posted signs warning about the consequences of attacking workers. I don't know if this is another cultural US dynamic versus Europe. Yeah, mean, a train's running late, people will punch

Thomas (25:43)

I it is. It's the first time I hear that. Amazing. Yeah.

Mary Schaub (25:54)

the train driver, the conductor, people. But this is happening so frequently that you're starting to see that it's changing our systems. And I'm wondering if this increase is less about more quote unquote bad behavior than it is an epidemic of dysregulation that's showing up as aggression. Up to now, we've been talking about individuals and relational systems.

But when you scale what we're talking about to organizations where you have workforces of hundreds of thousands of people, the complexity is going to increase dramatically. I'm wondering what you're seeing and obviously you're in Europe, so it's maybe different than here in the U S but I'm wondering how that might be playing out in companies today and how you're advising leaders on how

how to deal with these sort of shifts in our society.

Thomas (26:46)

Yeah, so I'm not, you know, I don't have the answer, but there are a couple of things that come to mind. First of all, we had the Corona time, which was a stressful situation and left many people almost in a helpless state. I mean, there was a trust in governments running things and all that. And suddenly you're at home.

difficult situations. The second thing, the more you observe it, the more it becomes norm. You it's like my father driving the car and suddenly you see people screaming and you go, ⁓ I can scream too. So if that wasn't culturally done, you're not doing it. There is this unconscious kind of copying. And the most important bit, I find people

more more stressed out and I look at the figures in terms of burnouts, in terms of needing support, psychiatrists being busy for four, six, eight months before you get to them, it is an indication that the whole system is stressed out.

And then you mentioned the polycrisis. mean, at least the parents then see so many things and the focus is, because our brain is primarily, the main function of our brain is to ensure survival. The second one is to be right. That's the reason we have these interesting discussions. It's...

Mary Schaub (28:16)

Ha ha ha.

Thomas (28:22)

It's a system that is stressed and we see the symptoms of that in different ways. then you have different cultures and that is one of the things which is so eye-opening. I mean if you spend some time abroad, if you lived in another country, you go, what? ⁓ Why are they doing this? And the first time you realize you take that for granted or this is how things are done.

And if you have a curious mind, go, I'm just curious, where did that come from? Why are they doing it differently? I mean, in Switzerland, ⁓ as we're famously known for our time, our trains are on time. I think there is a gap you can complain if the train is two minutes or three minutes late. So, you know, different context, different focus.

Mary Schaub (29:05)

yeah.

Thomas (29:16)

So I think one of the really eye-opening things for me working as a consultant, I worked a lot in Asia, I worked in the US, I worked in Europe, is increasing the resolution and seeing that things are done differently. And it's not one standard as I was taught. This is the way to behave. And look at how people use cutlery. It's fascinating. I just look at it and I say, hmm.

Mary Schaub (29:39)

Yeah.

Thomas (29:41)

probably from America, UK, France, I'm not sure. There's similarities, but even if you take Switzerland and Germany, where some people don't know that Switzerland has four languages and also cultural differences. So there are things you wouldn't do in Switzerland. You can do in Germany and vice versa. And then people are,

the Swiss or these Germans, mean, look how they behave. And I find that tickles my curiosity. go, why did that start? Because one king decided this is the norm or somebody came up and really had a good reason for it. So.

Mary Schaub (30:19)

This is the beauty of travel and why it's so important to travel and get to know other people in other cultures, to find the opportunities as well and to know yourself better. I thought I was a pretty well-cultured person. I worked for a global consulting firm, but then they moved me to Europe. I lived there for a couple of years. And even though I had traveled there, it was a completely different thing to actually live.

And even within Europe, of course, again, as an American, I'm thinking I'm in Europe. Well, it's not your, there's all these countries and microcultures within Europe. So it was a very humbling and educating experience to move to a different country and to have all of my beliefs and experiences challenged. ⁓ Speaking, I have a train experience in Switzerland that was very eye-opening.

Thomas (31:02)

Exactly.

Mary Schaub (31:08)

I was there for business and I landed at the airport and I thought, oh, my hotel is so close. I'll just take the Metro. I don't want to be a tourist and jump in a taxi. I'm going to do this. It's so, so it was like one stop away. And I went to the, to the right train track where it was supposed to be and the train was there. So it was a 528. My train was supposed to leave at 530. So I got on the 528 train and it takes off.

And next thing I know, people are opening up picnic baskets and sandwiches and taking their coats off and relaxing and the train's going really, really fast. And I was walking around going, what train? Finally, I found out that I was on the express train to Bern, which for Americans would be like going express to Philadelphia. And the conductor comes over, no stopping. And then I had like,

Thomas (31:51)

I've won some.

Mary Schaub (32:00)

a minute to get off and to get on the other side of the train to go back. So all in all, my very quick one stop to my hotel in Zurich ended up being about three hours because I didn't realize that it could be possible that there could be a 528 train and a 530 train, that that's how precise the train systems are. So I had to share that.

Thomas (32:18)

Yeah,

that's and you know, having the resolution and questioning the upbringing and the way we look at the world is one of the things and the gifts you get in being in different cultures. I was at a global training and I think a Chinese person pointed out some behaviors of the German group and I went, I didn't see that.

Because for me it was normalized, but for her it was like, this is what I noticed. And so this is one thing and then language is the house of being. The language we speak is also creating our reality. if you then change the language and you realize...

you perceive things also different and you feel different in this and suddenly priorities change. It's not just the context, it's also the language. And so I find that amazing and very interesting. I'm not very gifted in languages. I speak two, I can claim and one dialect because Swiss German is more of a dialect than a separate language.

So speaking this dialect compared to speaking high German, huge difference, huge difference in how it feels, how it comes across, how words are used. And there is fun in this discovery.

Mary Schaub (33:41)

I, on another trip to, business trip to Switzerland, I was with a group that included a German speaker. And I thought we actually were going to Davos that year. And of course it was very, you know, three trains and then it was a bus and it was very logistically challenged. And I thought we'll be okay because we have Bernard here and he's going to translate. And then he went, I don't understand what anyone's saying. And even that alone is so, you know, going back to.

awareness that there's so much even if you are well-traveled that you can learn I've certainly been teased as an American and sometimes it's well justified around the world. But I think it can help you take yourself a little less seriously too. We can kind of point out these things playfully to one another.

Thomas (34:25)

And you look at the label American, I that's really a general generalization. If you if you're from California, if you're Midwest, if you've, you know, different way of speaking, different way of valuing things in music and choices and all that. So and the same is true for Europe. And so we can increase the resolution. And I like the title of your

of your podcast because for me it kind of reminded me when I was a kid I always thought you know the world is a map and it's empty and I need to fill it with different colors and then I color code it and then you you have the streets or you have the buildings or you have whatever you choose and that's how I will learn about the world and then I think in the

discovered the fractals in the 80s and that was so amazing that

The length of a coast depends on how closely you look at it. And you have the units in higher resolutions showing up again. So that's a completely different model for learning and being curious about the world. If you think in fractals, there is so much more to discover, and never will stop to discover things.

Mary Schaub (35:48)

I think in the US the way our educational system is constructed, there's certain curriculums for certain age groups and it's very bottom up. You're in fifth grade and you're going to learn about the civil war in America and then maybe you'll learn about the French Revolution

But there isn't a story and I feel as humans we learn and we understand and make sense of our lives and stories. I love watching documentaries and the amount of content that's available on topics right now is wonderful. Of course, there's a little bit of...

Thomas (36:18)

in.

Mary Schaub (36:22)

youth is wasted on the young because I remember when my father was my age, he got really into documentaries. And of course I was a teenager and wanted to hear nothing of the cosmos and all the, he had just stumbled on Carl Sagan and he would bore me or what I thought was boring. And now I'm of his age and I'm like, I can't get enough of this. But really the way you frame some of this learning, it's fascinating. And the fractal component of it is,

this interconnection of all of these different systems and ideas and disciplines, and it's meaning making really, right? We're just trying to create some meaning and understanding. And there are some really interesting patterns. And I think on this show, I want to explore those patterns and talk to people like yourself and people from other disciplines of a lot of the pattern recognition across all of these disciplines. start to see some

Thomas (37:08)

Beautiful.

Mary Schaub (37:17)

I might be too much to say universal truths, but certainly some things that are shockingly similar that feel like there's some clues for us to lean in a little more and understand more deeply.

Thomas (37:30)

And it's also tied to our deep need to create meaning in things. Because there's data and then it's the kind of...

Mary Schaub (37:35)

for sure.

Thomas (37:41)

way we look at the world through the filters, through our conditioning. so there is, you know, the level of when we talked about the Europeans and the Americans and you break that further down, say, well, there are pockets and different behaviors and all that. And then you break it down and then you come to the unit of one. Each of us is unique and has a view on the world.

that is created by our system. It's not outside there. It's our choice of data and the interpretation. And that is amazing. This is what excited me about books, because I was able to look through the eyes of several authors and see their way of understanding the world and creating meaning. then there is

the individual and this quality and then there is this what connects us all and what makes us a human beings, not human doings, but how are we being and we are relational. I think that is in our code, that is how we grew up, is minimum everybody had nine months of or eight months of relationship. So this is so core to us.

and we sometimes forget.

Mary Schaub (38:53)

absolutely.

I think you just nailed it. think that has been the overarching theme of this season is our need to relate to one another, truly relate, is what we talked about before, having calm nervous systems being able to respond from a place of clarity and calm and presence with another and what that experience feels like when...

when you're really doing it. And I know we've talked about this before and I really appreciate it. We've been in instances where you're talking, but it's almost as if you're standing beside yourself. You're sort of going through the motions and you can be in situations often happens professionally where everyone's sort of doing that. And then there's sort of their other being is sort of, you know, two feet behind. And it's a very different perception. I can feel it. very, I'm sure you can as sensitive as you are.

that you can feel when someone is standing in the space with you and really bringing themselves to you, but also with this openness of wanting to see you and understand you. And it's so powerful and so many amazing things happen from that place. And I think, you know, we talk about the individual and relationships, organizations, society. I think that's the key. think that, and if you can scale that, and of course that's the challenge in the work that you do.

That's where the magic happens and that's how, this is going to sound a little woo woo, but that's how you heal the world, right? Is you start to get people to be able to do that again. And then we look at the loneliness epidemic and the addiction economy and all of these other big problems. I feel that they're all symptoms of this other lack, of this lack of connection.

Thomas (40:37)

Yeah, and it starts with connecting to yourself and realizing what's going on in yourself, especially when you're triggered. Do I try to avoid this by...

distractions or can I hold that and start to integrate that because I give it space because the movement is happening. So part of it, that is the fascinating thing for me, is language is so logical and...

and linear and we talk about anger but anger is a process it starts somewhere it builds and then it resides again it's much more I feel angry is much closer to I'm anger than I'm frozen in anger and so

Mary Schaub (41:24)

Right.

Thomas (41:29)

So going to this side of much more sensing it and connecting to it and choosing words that come closer to it and point at it and we sense this rings true that resonates is something you can train and you can focus. So I like the metaphor of tuning our instrument. If I know how

that resonates and what resonates with others. I can tune in much better. I can attune myself to others if I have that capacity of sensing that. And the curiosity is, am I generating that or am I feeling that in you? And discerning that and realizing that is me and that is you. I can check.

Mary Schaub (42:02)

Mm.

Thomas (42:23)

If there is trust, say, I have the sense you're feeling this and I can check my perceptions and I can hone in on getting better at that. If I feel relaxed and connected, if I feel threatened or unsafe, I will go in my head, right? And we'll discuss everything from a cognitive, observable, safe space.

Mary Schaub (42:43)

Yep.

Thomas (42:48)

But I think life is a below the neck experience. It's not happening in our head.

Mary Schaub (42:55)

When done well, maybe, right? And I think once you have had a taste of it, there might be people who have never even felt that, that they think that the cognitive, that that is the world.

Thomas (43:05)

I've been there. I know I've been there. That was my strategy to deal with my childhood. So saving my cognition, saving in all my models and that. And I think pretty much probably because of the industrialization and the area of enlightenment.

I think and therefore I am. No, I don't think so. If I'm able to observe my thoughts and realize I'm not my thought and I'm not sure whether you meant it that way, this is the interesting thing. That relaxes me. If I realize I'm not my thought, this is stuff that comes up.

based on conditioning and all that. So I don't have to act on that thought or being that thought. And that goes hand in hand with identity. Who am I and yes, how many? Remember the book title. So one of the exercises I sometimes invite my coaches is here is a list of 20 I ams. Just tell me who you are.

That is an amazing exercise because do I choose nouns? Do I choose things I can't change? Do I choose an identity that is based in nationality or profession or whatever? Or do I choose verbs that I'm curious?

I'm very effective, I'm lazy. Then you get into polarities because there is not just one state that is fantastic and very often we just aspire to be wonderful in all aspects and we're kind of ignoring the shadow part. And there is always a shadow part to it, where there's light, there is darkness, without darkness.

What's light?

Mary Schaub (44:53)

And

what we disavow tends to come back in different forms and distorted forms, right?

Thomas (44:56)

yeah. And

we see that in so many organizations and honoring that some of the strategies of organization or states were survival strategies. then, of course,

Mary Schaub (45:09)

That's the

culture you're talking about is actually the disavowed norms, those shadows of an organization actually come out in those ways that we, whenever we hear people talk about, that's a toxic culture. That's what you're describing now is.

Thomas (45:23)

Well, toxic culture, I'm very careful in labeling things because there is this great story. I think it was Vaclavik, I'm not sure, he was in a medical kind of symposium and they introduced schizophrenia.

and then somebody said so professor Watzle, would you diagnose, how would you do it? And he was thinking I said I wouldn't diagnose it in the first place. I love that because it's the very moment we put labels on things they're kind of fixed nor the quality of things can change and are much more fluid than we, you know.

Mary Schaub (45:55)

You

Mm.

Thomas (46:08)

the identity. ⁓ even the stories, if you would ask me, so where do you come from and who, this is a story. And that kind of gives me an identity. And I can tell you that story has changed quite a bit. ⁓

Mary Schaub (46:23)

Well, and I was just

going to ask you the story that led you from, so you're the founder and managing partner of Airgon and you support business leaders integrating psychology and of course your business knowledge from a very traditional high prestige academic and consulting background. What was the story that led you here?

Thomas (46:44)

The current version is... I have to give bit of context. My father is Swiss, my mother is German and my mother was a little kid in Berlin during the war. So there is already a context in terms of her strategies. My father Comes from a family of...

Mary Schaub (46:46)

Hahaha.

Thomas (47:03)

entrepreneurs, the grandfather created this company and he was sent to Germany to build the business. So that was my context and what then happened was I was

raised in Germany and at the same time was told you're Swiss. Mother became Swiss in marrying me and we're Swiss and we speak Swiss German at home which was kind of funny because my mother being German of course didn't speak Swiss German. She tried and she advanced to a level but you hear immediately her background is German. And so

If one of the key drivers in psychology is belonging, I want to belong to the family, to the group, the tribe, that already was difficult for me because, you know, given that context. I early on started to be a go-between and understanding the differences. ⁓

Mary Schaub (47:59)

interesting.

Thomas (48:01)

And then I think given that my mother and my father had coping mechanisms to deal with fear and people and being in a difficult situation, I decided to go into the world of books and readings and discovering all that. So I was reading a lot as a kid. And one of the most fascinating experience I had when in...

In high school, we had chemistry and the teacher ⁓ showed an experiment having water and electricity and suddenly two gases would be produced and in the ratio of two to one, it said, so how do we find out what those gases are? And of course we...

could fire to it and one exploded and everybody was shocked and the other one kind of, because it was oxygen supported, the burning process. I was fascinated. So you take a liquid and you separate that. And then learning more and more in chemistry, of course, that was just the surface. There was a better explanation, the better explanation.

That kind of curiosity I found very helpful in science and I found very helpful with humans. dared then to move over into this. At the end it also has to do with bonds and energy and how we relate to each other. So I had a model I was able to expand.

If you look at the CV, it looks like, ⁓ and then you change totally his direction. But I would argue that there were layers of learning and exposure and elements of capabilities I was able to take and bring to the other area. And then, of course, I was very naive because I thought, it won't be so difficult. Let's try this. then two years in the game, said, my god.

Mary Schaub (49:50)

yeah.

Thomas (49:50)

really

underestimated that I was naive in getting into these areas and then I learned.

Mary Schaub (49:57)

This is familiar to me. We've had some similar backgrounds with love of books and learning. I think traditionally going up the ladder and one, saying being a consultant, being a partner, and then there's a very clear ladder and trajectory. And it can feel scary when you jump off of that and then you decide to find your own way.

But the kind of work that we're talking about, it feels right, it feels necessary. And I think to your point about layers, it doesn't feel like it's in conflict. It feels like it brings something very different and differentiated to whatever you end up doing. And so I'm so impressed by your ability to integrate this deep, vast intellectual knowledge with this human side.

in addition to your consulting work in your educational leadership roles, you've written the emperor's cupboard and espresso your mind, which I've enjoyed. And you hosted the Zen stories podcast, which, I'm, voting that you, you, ⁓ do another podcast soon. you're so fascinating in, being able to take all of these different areas that maybe seem disparate or seem like different tracks, that actually just creates this deep richness.

And then the work that you do, because you're helping, I mean, everyone from students to CEOs, just in my mind, it just expands your vocabulary and your ability to help so many more people. And I'm wondering if you look at that as helping people or in your work, do you assess if someone's ready to start to do the type of inner work that...

that you're talking about or is readiness even the right way of looking at it?

Thomas (51:39)

I don't know, there is this saying, I haven't said it for a long time, it says, if the pupil is ready, the teacher will appear. I definitely, that was true for me. I think I was curious, I was fearful as well. But somehow the curiosity very often was driving it and the passion to do it or understand it and kind of experience it.

And only later I found that there are benefits I didn't even realize across fertilization. I'll give you an example. In my family, music was very important because my father actually wanted to become a pianist and he played a lot. So we were singing and all that was fine. And I think I was about 40 or 41 and a good friend of mine.

Mary Schaub (52:26)

Wow.

Thomas (52:36)

we met and very unswiss he was late. I said, so wait, what happened? And he said, Oh, you know, I just had a singing class.

And I said, wow, how did you come up with this? long story short, said, I want that as well. So I took singing classes and that was so amazing. once and then my my sisters were singing in the chorus and said, you need to come. And so two of my three sisters and I were for eight years in the chorus. And I was so. Smitten and.

Mary Schaub (53:06)

Wow.

Thomas (53:09)

impressed by the leadership of Marco Kunz, was the leading the chorus. The way he listened and the way he was able to name emotions, and we were eight voices and he said, you know, I heard you and da da da. And so there is a quality he brought to the setting and a

a leadership quality. was very friendly but very strict and going for excellence.

And so that combination... And then I learned later in a different context that I was able to hear much more of the emotions when people talked and I got a sense for it. So there was a higher resolution in just listening to the voice and how people would talk. And suddenly I said, wow, this is cool. It's a benefit out of this. I didn't expect it. So these are the kind of...

Mary Schaub (54:06)

Wow, I would never have thought. That's incredible.

Thomas (54:12)

things you start discovering when you're curious. And I have a number of these. And I go, wow, this is really amazing. How exciting.

Mary Schaub (54:20)

You said

it before around curiosity and a friend of mine, Christian Madsberg, wrote a book, Look How to Pay Attention, and the book talks about all of these discoveries and innovations that occurred in really surprising ways like you're describing because someone was paying attention and curious and then applied that in a different area of their lives. That's just fascinating.

Thomas (54:44)

If we go back

to the question, if people are ready, think there is on various levels on the nervous system, am I the right person on how I'm listening and connecting and

I think I'm getting better at it if that is relevant at all and there are some people where it doesn't feel right. And of course I can put a story on it why it didn't work out but then I'm already slightly detached from, no, she or he made the choice and I'll honor that.

everything else we could get very conceptual and I could come up with a number of reasons why it works or doesn't work. But I think it's just a sense people have. Usually I have something like 20 minutes or 40 minutes chemistry talk and then say sleep it over, trust your instincts and whatever you choose is totally okay with me. Because I think at the end

I can produce a lot of noise when people choose what they want to engage with, but at the end it's their agency, it's their authorship of their life. I want to support, not help. Help for me implies you're needy. No, I think you're doing fine. The question of...

Is that relationship beneficial in ways? And I have to tell you this is one of the amazing

things in being a coach. I learned so much. I get viewpoints. I go wow, really wow. I have a client who is a chess master and he talks about stuff and I go wow, never thought this. Now he thinks about the world and very often we come to this point where is this flow, where is this

is being in the river of life and enjoying it and if coaching becomes that, we're, wow, one and a half hours are over, that is amazing.

Mary Schaub (56:56)

Sometimes I'll be struggling with something and then a script will pop up in my mind as though I wrote it weeks ago for myself to find later on or a coachee will say something and I will respond in a certain way and then I'll respond to myself in the exact same way when something similar arises.

As we wrap up, I wanted to reflect on how heavy the world can feel right now. But also at the same time, I'm noticing more people drawn to coaching and change work and even having deeper conversations like this one. Noticing on LinkedIn that

posts that once felt very transactional and self-promotion now seem to show more vulnerability and authenticity. And I'm wondering if you're hopeful that these might be early signs of collective healing or growth or just a positive shift.

Thomas (57:53)

My sense is...

that it is important to see things as they are. If I'm too hopeful I kind of paint a rosy picture. I think I'm a realistic optimist. And then the other side is do I feel agency? Can I contribute? Can I make a difference?

And I find I can do that in any kind of interaction. there are helpful and very encouraging trends, find. So I did my first coaching education in 96.

And at that time, when you did coaching, it was more like, you need therapy. What's wrong with you kind of attitude. And then, you know, the sports people, everybody now, it's almost status. You have a fantastic coach and you, you know, I have Tony Robbins or I have this coach and he helps me. But the point is,

Mary Schaub (58:46)

Mm-hmm.

Thomas (59:03)

more how am I feeling in this world? Do I feel I can make a difference and can I focus on things? And I have this maybe almost naive thing that any interaction I can influence and every interaction is important.

and I like to see it as it is, not the rosy pictures, we're improving or the negative picture, look at all the number of wars and then we can come up with data that proves one point or another because we have less but we have much more escalating conflicts, we have much more brutality in the way we treat each other.

So I think I had really, being a consultant, I was more ambitious in my purpose and all that. And now I focus much more on those moments. And there is a beautiful question. I heard that from a, I think he was an Egyptian philosopher and he was interviewed by a BBC guy. And the guy said, so tell me who's the most important person for you?

philosopher pondered the question. And then he gave an answer which I really needed to ponder because he said always the person in front of me.

Mary Schaub (1:00:26)

beautiful.

Thomas (1:00:28)

And that has a quality of really being in the moment, being connected, because everything else is in my head or somewhere else.

And it has this quality of connecting to my vis-a-vis. It's not just me. I'm the most important. I need to be safe. think we have, especially in the Western world, we have a hyper-individualization going on. Self-help programs, optimizing optimization programs, longevity. We will live 120 years.

I'm not sure that that is the way I look at it. I think there is some humbleness that is needed in this way of looking at it.

Mary Schaub (1:01:14)

That is so touching and I'm taking a pause because so many things are coming together for me as you say that.

Thomas (1:01:25)

Mm-hmm.

Mary Schaub (1:01:26)

The first season of this podcast had the tagline, you are the change you've been waiting for, and it was very much, you are the change. And something shifted, I don't know what, but it didn't feel right anymore. And this season is really about the relational space, as you said it. And...

that as overwhelming as the world is, this isn't, I'm not gonna talk politics on this show, I'm not gonna talk about economic plans and policy. And to your point, those are stories and those are things generally outside of most of our control. But how I respond to you or how I respond to the person who cut me off on the highway is in my control. It is not just about me.

Thomas (1:02:08)

Mm.

Mary Schaub (1:02:21)

but it does require something of me. And it has the potential of making an impact like a ripple that we don't know where it goes. And certainly if we are intentional with every interaction that way, then something shifts for us and something shifts in our energy field. And then if you do that and the person next to us does that and the person next to us does that, that...

That feels more like the way.

Thomas (1:02:50)

Yes, I think it's also their science comes in and they tested that and there many examples where people, you know, they pay forward or do something good for others and that will impact their behavior. They will be very likely to be more positive in their next interaction. That's the proof I need, you know, that's the kind of change I'd like to see.

And then we will fall back. fall back to, I think, family is a very special setup. my big two teachers are my wife and my daughter. So yeah, this is part of the messiness and the joy of being alive.

Mary Schaub (1:03:32)

I mean, I deeply believe in the power of conversations like this. I, I feel like it helps us to both heal ourselves, but also to challenge ourselves and to grow. And that this is the work that can help us then show up more with the person in front of us and to support people so that we can operate more times than less, never going to be perfect, but.

Thomas (1:03:37)

Hmm.

Mary Schaub (1:03:59)

more so from a place of clarity and care and integrity. And across all of this from polycrisis to road rage, it feels like it does come back to do we react automatically or do we build the capacity to respond with conscious compassion? And Thomas, you demonstrate that through your work and how generously you share your wisdom and compassion with others, including me.

I want to thank you. I'm extremely grateful and honored to spend this time with you today. So thank you so much. It's been a gift.

Thomas (1:04:32)

Thank you. Yeah.

Thank you.